Curse

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 05, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

then they tried the idiotic solutions suggested by players

So basically what you are saying, in a nutshell, is that the TK are a bunch of idiots? As far as I can see, they are about the closest thing to real players that anet have anything to do with these days.

Tenebrae · Mar 05, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

The game belongs entirely to ArenaNet. They govern what is and isn't possible. Those are the rules. Ergo, if something is possible, it is defacto acceptable, or else why make it possible in the first place?

Dont act like a fool , this is not chess dude. Here in GW are like XXXX skills or so ? yeah, they created them and changed some but they are humans , not machines , they cant know EVERY possible combo when they make an update or release a campaign with some new skills. In a perfect world all skills would be ultrabalanced like chesss but guess what ..... like in reality , this "world" isnt perfect or fair .

PS: If someone really thinks that SF and 600/smite werent abused as hell , please uninstall the game because you are totally clueless.

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

This isn't the real world. Applying real world arguments of conduct to a game is laughable.

Oversimplify much?

This game is played by real people in a real world and it's not exempt by simple rules of conduct. Sorry, if you think you can do whatever you please while behind a keyboard just because "this isn't the real world", you're wrong.

The EULA is there for you to know what to avoid if you don't wanna get banned. Nothing more. That's why I called the playerbase immature: only immature people could think that only explicit prohibitions make something "wrong", while everything else is absolutely, universally acceptable and fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

So basically what you are saying, in a nutshell, is that the TK are a bunch of idiots? As far as I can see, they are about the closest thing to real players that anet have anything to do with these days.

Nothing like that. I don't know why you assumed I was referring to the TK in the first place, but, whatever...

I was talking about changing the enemies skillbars to make gimmicks harder instead of altering the "gimmicky" builds themselves (as often suggested on these forums... "SF is perfectly fine, just give Signet of Disenchantment to any foe in the game and you're done!"). A couple of changes that spring into my mind are the introduction of Reversal of Damage in CoF to slow 600/Smite runs, or the altered skillbars of the Spectres in the Chaos Plains to prevent farming.

Those changes happened way before the TK was set in place, but did little to stop speed clears and proved pointless if not counterproductive.

upier · Mar 05, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And yet in PvP, killing the other player is not only acceptable, it's actually the goal of the whole mode.

Gotta love people playing the fool on GWGuru.

upier · Mar 05, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you need to play the game by rules that aren't specified by A.Net, what is a more universally acceptable rule than Don't kill?

You're not killing another player, it's an animated scene composed by pixels. Your parallel doesn't make sense and you know it, but I know by now that you love acting like a performer of the theatre of the absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You can not be a jerk because the GW rules tell you that and not because real life rules tell you that.
You can not cheat in GW because GW rules tell you that you can't and not real life rules.

Mature people know they cannot be jerks by using their common sense even before they read the EULA. Ineducated little children have mum telling them what they can and what they cannot do, since they cannot discern yet.

The EULA is only there to tell you that if you act like a jerk or cheat, ANet can also take measures and have you banned.

I'm not mad, I've never advocated bans for gimmick builds users. Yet if we've been discussing this for 2 years now, and ANet ended up nerfing some of them, something is probably not that "acceptable" about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

There is no rule that says that you can't bring Blinding Surge into RA.

There's no rule in the game that says Mesmers must have a place in PvE. They never had one, they were badly designed since the very beginning and are pretty much pointless. It's ANet who put the Mesmer in the game, while it obviously serves no purpose. They're subpar by design. Playing good classes that gets things done fast and efficiently is allowed, so permanent SF is good. Instead of nerfing it, they should have removed pointless classes from the game.

Fairness is a not-written concept. Why bothering?

I couldn't find any paragraph in the EULA about ANet's commitment to have the game "balanced", to have all classes receive the same ammount of buffs and nerfs, to give equal opportunities to all professions. Nor that we've to be given tools to make grinding acceptable. Because, you know, the EULA is the only rules of conduct we must follow in a virtual environment, right? So don't bother asking: the game is perfectly fine, ANet has been absolutely linear and blameless when we look at the Licence Agreement we've accepted. Anet is who defines the rules, ANet is free to make of the game whatever they please. They decided to leave Mesmers in their useless state, they decided to trash stuff they didn't like, everything is fine.

It's a virtual world after all.

Shasgaliel · Mar 05, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you need to play the game by rules that aren't specified by A.Net, what is a more universally acceptable rule than Don't kill?

You can not be a jerk because the GW rules tell you that and not because real life rules tell you that.
You can not cheat in GW because GW rules tell you that you can't and not real life rules.
There is no rule that says that you can't bring Blinding Surge into RA.

You do not kill anyone there. As simple as that. You do not kill player just temporarily make someones avatar lying on the ground. I see the difference do you?

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

You do not kill anyone there. As simple as that. You do not kill player just temporarily make someones avatar lying on the ground. I see the difference do you?

He sure does. That was irony. You can rarely take upier too literally.

upier · Mar 05, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That would mean that cleaning out one's account isn't really wrong because just like your character it's just virtual crap.
So ... why are people getting banned over it?

Because they do it thanks to unauthorized access to other players' account - and get banned for unauthorized access, not for wiping your bank - while by entering an Arena you know there's a chance your avatar will get "killed" and proceed by tacit agreement, even if it's ethically "wrong". It's a written rule against a game design feature, not comparable.*

If I willingly hand over my credentials to a friend and tell him to clean out my account 'cause I won't be playing anymore but I'm too lazy to sell my stuff and delete my characters, he won't get banned for just doing it. Unless I lie and pretend I was hacked and contact support.

Or unless someone @ Support notices that I gave my account away, which is a breach in the rules of conduct, but that's another thing alltogether.

BTW, you failed to detect some obvious sarcasm about the "virtual world" thing... It's not me who's been saying that this is "only a virtual world". Check again.

I don't believe some rules of conduct need to be "written" to matter just because this a virtual world. Some principles (what I've been calling "common sense", you called them "morals") are broadly accepted and virtual worlds are not exempt from them. When I said this, I was quoted and laughed at because "this is just a game". Well, so? The EULA only lists breach of conducts that are considered bannable offenses. If the EULA wasn't clear enough, would you go around and insult people just because it's not forbidden? Threaten them? Verbally abuse them? Hopefully not, if you have any moral principle <- A non-written rule, that's all.

This has little to nothing to do with gimmicks tough, so I don't even know why we're still talking about it... *sigh*

* PS - About this... I seem to recall that some player faced consequences (a ban? don't remember) for /ranking a defeated opponent during a tournament. "Unsportly Behaviour". Something not found in the "written rules"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So, once again - where is the players fault in this fiasco?
Because A.Net decided to try to not piss of players BECAUSE that would potentially mean the loss of revenue for them?
Seriously?

I already told you my opinion about this: players have no "fault" for this. Heck, I've been questioning ANet's inability to take prompt decisions for months now.

This doesn't make people who are now whining for the nerfs any better in my eyes, but that's just a matter of personal opinions.

upier · Mar 05, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yes, but you are trying to impose your moral rules onto others.

How?

I just said that people usually have some (very personal) faculty of discern and some (very personal) moral principles that supposedly kick in even before the written rules are in place.

I don't think morals and ethics (whatever they are, not just MY moral rules) have no place in a game just because it's set in a "virtual world". Well, I was even laughed at for this. "It's just a game". So? Thank you ANet for conceiving a comprehensive end user licence agreement, or people would simply come at me and insult me because it's just a game. At least people refrain from insulting me because they fear a ban...

I admitedly never read the EULA paying attention, tl;dr. Yet I don't insult people anyway, I don't hack the game, I don't buy gold for real world money. I've used my common-sense so far. My personal set of non-written rules I abide.

About the specific issues of moral principles when it comes to gimmicks: I didn't find some gimmicks acceptable (I find them abusive and I'm not for abuses) and so never (ab)used them. That was my choice, it wasn't forbidden by the written rules, I chose not to support gimmicks, but never tried to deter people from using them. Looks like my "moral rules" are pretty close to those of the developers tough.

Also, my position about nerfs has always been absolutely neutral: you can't assume I was longing for the nerfs to come, only because I saw them coming. I'm the kind of person that usually takes it, rarely leaves it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

People have the right to complain, unless of course, this being Guru, a private forum, the Guru folks say that they won't allow it.
A.Net doesn't have the right to say we shouldn't complain and nor do you.
You might disagree with the complaints, but that's your right. Just as it's our right to disagree with your disagreeing.

I'm not trying to impose anything. Never said people cannot complain.

Actually, there are tons of QQ-threads around I've refrained from even replying.

Find some posts of mine where I apparently try to shut the complaints down if you can. All I might have done so far was to "disagree with the complaints", providing my arguments.

I have the right to have an opinion on facts and people, haven't I?

Shuuda · Mar 05, 2010, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

View Post
There's no rule in the game that says Mesmers must have a place in PvE. They never had one, they were badly designed since the very beginning and are pretty much pointless. It's ANet who put the Mesmer in the game, while it obviously serves no purpose.

I'm in no way siding with Upier. However, I should remind you that there is such a thing as PvP in this game.

Age · Mar 05, 2010, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I'm in no way siding with Upier. However, I should remind you that there is such a thing as PvP in this game.

PvP has been dead since automated tournaments came in oh there maybe others playing it but not the big guilds from two years ago.

Del · Mar 05, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

PvP has been dead since automated tournaments came in oh there maybe others playing it but not the big guilds from two years ago.

As long as there are people playing it, it isn't dead yet. also, far from dead in euro hours.

Gill Halendt · Mar 05, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I'm in no way siding with Upier. However, I should remind you that there is such a thing as PvP in this game.

I know, that was ironic. It was a reference to a long debate between me an upier about Mesmers.

It was meant to be an example of some non-written rule - fairness - that some of us expect to be followed by developers when developing and mantaining professions, even tough non-written.

own age myname · Mar 05, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Man, I hate quote wars. Ruin threads.

Orry · Mar 06, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

Man, I hate quote wars. Ruin threads.

Quote wars are the very essence of a thread's life.

Also, Mesmer's play fine in PvE, my alliance knows me quite well for not dying and running around rezing all of them in elite areas on my mesmer.

reaper with no name · Mar 06, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

So do Mending Wammos. Doesn't make them good or worth using.

Anyway, it's been over a week now. I haven't been able to get much play time in myself (and even if I had, it would just be one person's experience), so how has the meta changed so far? I've heard conflicting reports about the status of SF and 600/Smite. And I'm curious about how much effect the new Demonic Flesh has had on warriors with HB and WA.